The Clique.

[Christopher]

I can't help but find all of this nonsense about "The Clique" laughable.

Without spoiling the way this game ends...I'm interested to know who "The Clique" was that dominated this game? In order to be a "Clique" shouldn't the whole "Clique" that is being indicated make it to the end in tact? Does most of this supposed "Clique" make it to the end?

When I walked into the game, I was lumped in with some group from Season 4. Beth, Tenzil, Jenne & Taylor. No good reason, other than in THEIR game, they'd told people they were friends with me.

I think it is pretty clear from the Episodes so far that I am only talking strategy with 2 of the 4. And have actively worked against the other 2. I would think, right there, that would sort of mitigate any accusations of being part of "The Clique" from Season 4. But nope. We've got some sore losers here, folks.

It seems to me that as the game progresses, the "whiners" just kept slapping the label of "Clique" on whatever group was successful in that particular moment. Because from what I saw at the end of this game...the final group had little to do with whatever "Clique" people were ranting about.

And it cracks me up. Because if Shaun, Missie, Taylor & Isaac had made a go of it (as the Season 2 peeps), would they be "The Clique"? No. They'd be an "Alliance".

Grow up, people. Go back and look at the game, and see if "The Clique" you love to piss and moan about is in tact by the end, or even halfway through.

So, your whining? Well...it's on the lame side.


***edited to be as spoiler-free as possible.

[Host Kyle]

Well, it seems like somebody is on the defensive....

And Christopher I'm glad we've crossed into an understanding with each other that we can disagree and have it out and still be buds after the smoke has settled.

I can only assume this tyrade is in response to my perspective as I don't see where the clique has been harped on too much in these fan clubs yet. And I don't seem to recall Christopher's name being mentioned. You have to admit there is an element of trust among some folks that was not equally enjoyed among others in this game. Anyone's fault? Yes and no. Other players have had all this time to build relationships with those they have played with. That would be their fault. And those coming in with a slew of friends shouldn't be expected to toss them aside just so others will have a more "fair" chance. So...no one's fault there.

As far as the episodes reveal, Christopher works on his own and gains his own allies, so I don't see where you feel the need to be defensive. I think it is quite clear that you are turning your own tables.

Others....not so innocent. Am I totally without fault? Not in the slightest.

My point in my perspective was that very bold statements and actions have been made in the game thus far that can only be encouraged by a large padding of security. Nothing more, nothing less.

But....since you bring it up, let's create a scenario that this game started with 16 people and there was not a Jenne, Beth, JoJo, or Elisabeth.

(and before I have to go explaining my words, I'm not lumping people into a clique, I'm merely stating that they were your trustworthy confidants from the get-go)

If those people weren't in this game, Chris, would you still have been the front man of a so-called "Bitch Four?" Who would you have sent after Ashley to rally her against Jamie? Who would've asked how high when you said jump? How much would it have affected the success of your strategy this early in the game?

I'm by no means deflating your ability to play this game, because you can play it like a mother. I'm merely asking. How does knowing such a large number of people that trust you implicitly affect your confidence and success in risky strategy?

I, for one, did not share that padding with you. Even the ones I thought trusted me or were looking out for me, were already deciding my fate before I had even opened my mouth in the game.

So enlighten me on this very contreversial subject.

[Christopher]

kyle said:

Well, it seems like somebody is on the defensive....

Not just for myself, but for the others who don't speak out. I know that people said I was "in the clique" throughout my time in the game (however long that turns out to be, fans). And it annoyed. Because I was playing MY game. If someone was useful to me, I worked with them. It didn't matter to me what season they were from.

kyle said:

And Christopher I'm glad we've crossed into an understanding with each other that we can disagree and have it out and still be buds after the smoke has settled.

Fo' sho'.

kyle said:

I can only assume this tyrade is in response to my perspective as I don't see where the clique has been harped on too much in these fan clubs yet. And I don't seem to recall Christopher's name being mentioned.

Actually...no. Not just you. The polls (started by supposed "clique" members, no less) talking about those in the "clique" still in the game.

It was just such an easy, cowardly way of bonding and heping shit on other people. And it was pretty lame. Especially considering some of those who it came from.

kyle said:

You have to admit there is an element of trust among some folks that was not equally enjoyed among others in this game. Anyone's fault? Yes and no. Other players have had all this time to build relationships with those they have played with. That would be their fault. And those coming in with a slew of friends shouldn't be expected to toss them aside just so others will have a more "fair" chance. So...no one's fault there.

You walked in with an agreement with Jamie. You were close to "The Clique" from Season 4, and with the exception of Jenne...seemed to have some sort of working relationship/trust with each of them by the end of Episode 1.

Did I have people I trusted by the end of Episode 1? Sure. Did Missie? Sure. Did Tenzil? Sure. Did Ryan? Sure.

Everyone had someone or a few someones they knew walking in. It is All-Stars. The same thing happened in the REAL game. Rob & Amber. Lex, who was betrayed. Tom, with Ethan & Lex. Their tribal placements ended up nullifying things, but in this game - we didn't have tribes stopping us from working with anybody.

kyle said:

As far as the episodes reveal, Christopher works on his own and gains his own allies, so I don't see where you feel the need to be defensive. I think it is quite clear that you are turning your own tables.

And that is exactly where I stand. I played my game on my own terms.

For the time I was there, I switched allegiances when it benefitted me. Because that was the game, and I didn't come in to lose without trying.

Yet, I am well aware that I was accused more than most of being part of some "clique".

So...it annoys. And it urges me to tell people to grow up and stop whining. Clearly, if they want to include me in some "clique" statement, they are either sore losers, or they aren't clear on the game I played.

So, yeah. If you are a sore loser. Grow up. If you just don't know what I did in this game...keep reading for as many episodes as I am in before casting stones. Then you tell me if I was part of some "Clique" from Season 4.

kyle said:

Others....not so innocent. Am I totally without fault? Not in the slightest.

My point in my perspective was that very bold statements and actions have been made in the game thus far that can only be encouraged by a large padding of security. Nothing more, nothing less.

But....since you bring it up, let's create a scenario that this game started with 16 people and there was not a Jenne, Beth, JoJo, or Elisabeth.

(and before I have to go explaining my words, I'm not lumping people into a clique, I'm merely stating that they were your trustworthy confidants from the get-go)

If those people weren't in this game, Chris, would you still have been the front man of a so-called "Bitch Four?" Who would you have sent after Ashley to rally her against Jamie? Who would've asked how high when you said jump? How much would it have affected the success of your strategy this early in the game?

I would have done just fine, thanks. I won Season 1 of Holidays. I was in the Final 2 in Cozumel. And I was was in the Final 3 in Socotra...where for the post-merge, I was pretty much on my own, as was everyone. Because it was an All-Star (and as we know, they get ugly). And save one (big!) mistake in Okinawa, Mario consistently said I was F4-bound.

So I have no questions about how I would have fared. I never do.

Who would have gone to Ashley? Me. Or someone else I had ended up aligning with. And I don't consider myself the frontman of the "Bitch 4".

How would you have done without knowing anybody in this game, Kyle? Or Jamie? Or Isaac? Or anyone?

It's a non-question. Because it is an All-Star. And the point of an All-Star is that people are RETURNING...and likely know each other or at least know of each other.

kyle said:

I'm by no means deflating your ability to play this game, because you can play it like a mother. I'm merely asking. How does knowing such a large number of people that trust you implicitly affect your confidence and success in risky strategy?

Thank you. And I think you are a very good player as well. As is almost everyone who played. I don't think this was an easy game for anyone. It was perhaps the toughest competition I have ever faced. We'll see how I do.

kyle said:

I, for one, did not share that padding with you. Even the ones I thought trusted me or were looking out for me, were already deciding my fate before I had even opened my mouth in the game.

So enlighten me on this very contreversial subject.

Well...I have to take issue. Beth was blabbing my secrets as much as yours, and quite clearly working both sides. Taylor was undercutting everyone. And as you know, more accusations should appear in the eps soon about various people not being on the up & up with their alliances.

So...yeah. You were no better or worse off than the rest of us.

So...back to the question? Was there a "Clique"?

I don't think so.

Were there Alliances?

A f**k of a lot of 'em.

[Host Kyle]

This was to Rob:

hmmmmmmmmmmm i seem to recall the same could be said of prior safety in valentines day with jenne, tenzil, taylor, kyle and beth. i see no difference this time either.

First of all...I had just met them coming into VD, and my trust was blind. We saw how safe I was with them.

Other players have had all this time to build relationships with those they have played with. That would be their fault.

Second of all...I do believe I referenced who's fault it was for not utilizing an advantage.

Third of all...I'm merely discussing with CHRISTOPHER, so thanks, Robby but I don't need your insight.

My point is there is an element of trust that comes along with how intimately you know a person. Simply knowing someone does not cut it, and I would venture to say that half this cast were not even aware of how deep ties ran with some of the folks in this game, so not utilizing people they merely "know" is completely understandable.

And lastly, I think my comment to CHRISTOPHER was very open minded and seeking to understand both sides.

Rob, you said you didn't want to stir up crap, so don't.

[Host Kyle]

And this is to Chris:


Thank you. Discussion is golden. Makes me feel better to see both sides, and I always know you have a way to explain in an appeasing manner.

I agree with you on all counts. Only...I didn't know Jamie was playing till the day before or so. I had no clue she would be in.

And yes, as you point out, our secrets were being shared, so no one was particularly safer than another.

[Christopher]

Well thanks for hearing what I had to say about it.

I typed it quickly, so I was worried I was a little too blunt, even for me.

But I have appointments!

But, bottom line...no matter how long I last, or how long the people I care about last...this was a tough d**n game. Karen made it hard on all of us, and everyone did pretty amazing. Even the first boots tried to work their magic to stay. People were invested in being here, and slamming each other and saying "those people are crappy because..." or "they weren't really that good because..." doesn't do justice to the game played, in my opinion.

I'm just glad to see everyone's names on the board, and seeing everyone get their deserved forum love. Let's all have as much fun with it as we can.

Thanks again for the episodes.

[Christopher]

robby said:

Chris I agree with you on this.

*cocks head as the loudspeaker crackles*

"BLUELIGHT SPECIAL IN THE PHARMACY"


LMAO!!! you know what that means buddy *winks*

[Taylor]

Since I guess I was a member of the so called "clique" I just want to make a comment on it.

Honestly, and I know this sounds awful, I had more comfort coming into this game than any I had in a while. Even though I didn't expect this whole clique thing to go all of the way, and I hated some supposed members of the clique, I still wanted to use it for my benefit. Wether we liked it or not, we all used friendships in this game, even to the point where we abused them, and I was coming in much more likely to belive and stick with Jenne and Beth over someone like Ashley or Jake, that may very well change depending on how far I go, but put Ashley's word against Jenne's at that point and I would have 100% went with Jenne, and I've shown that.

It may not be appearant, and we never made a formal agreement, but we did trust each other a lot more knowing each other than someone we had never met, or in the case with Tenzil and I, not trust each other ( at least till this point). We were more likely to keep each other around just because of that, and I banked on that this episode, I think.

[Christopher]

taylor said:

It may not be appearant, and we never made a formal agreement, but we did trust each other a lot more knowing each other than someone we had never met, or in the case with Tenzil and I, not trust each other ( at least till this point). We were more likely to keep each other around just because of that, and I banked on that this episode, I think.

See...I totally am on the opposite page.

It is because of past history that I did not trust you, Taylor, or Tenzil. And...well, I won't spoil, but there is more of that to come with at least one more person. And it is because of history that I was able to doubt you guys, when accusations began to fly through camp.

Because when you look back:

*I voted Beth out in Cozumel.
*Beth voted Lizzie out in Okinawa, Socotra & Holidays 4.
*Beth voted Tenzil out in Socotra.
*Tenzil had told me pre-Socotra that he would vote me out.
*Taylor voted Jenne out in Tonga.
*Jenne, Tenzil, Beth had voted Taylor out in Holidays 4.
*Tenzil had voted Jenne out in Holidays 4.

And the list probably goes on, but I'm forgetting. Not to mention the people who had voted each other out in Holidays.

Ending point: I was actually much more open to working with new people over some of the people I had known in previous incarnations. Too much history, and potential for vengeance/repeats.

[Host Kyle]

By all means, Rob, keep plugging in your two cents worth because this is an open forum, all are welcome to share their thoughts or feelings....it makes for fun reading so share on!

Just be ready to reciprocate that thick skin when someone doesn't like your 2 cents.

[Tenzil]

First, clarifications:

People were invested in being here.

Ahem. Nineteen were. Investment requires a wee bit more effort then I was willing to make.

Tenzil had voted Jenne out in Holidays 4.

My other option was Beth who I also consider a personal friend. I didn't wan't to make that choice at all. Ultimately, the role strategy had it had because that's the only way I could look at them objectively in that situation.

Tenzil had told me pre-Socotra that he would vote me out.

I don't think I ever said that. I *think* it got back to you via a circuitous route which lead to a chat where we attemoted to clear the air. To the best of my memory what I said was that in trying to watch my own ass I had to find allies and look at people who were potential threats.

Some of that may be snippier then I mean to say it but it's totally not meant that way. I just want everything clear.

As for "The Clique"--well Jamie never said who she considered to be in it so to me it did seem a bit defensive. This doesn't invalidate anything you said though; it is still a terrifically tough game with or without prior bonds.

Having said that I think even the most impartial person would say that the plotting is currently being dominated and directed by people with those pre-existing bonds and relationships either directly or indirectly. So even if there isn't a clique persay there is still something of a clique-ish mindset.

Chris is right. Jamie is right. Okay? Okay.

[Host Kyle]

Point taken, and received.

Just consider that I had thought this whole thing had been spawned by my Perspective in my fan club...I didn't know anything about a poll or whatever else it was that fueled it.

So I felt a public defense was a fair option for a public rant. Chris and I are homies....we discuss, wrestle each other to the ground, beat each other to a pulp, then
shake hands.

Contrary to what it seems around here... I got much respect for that fella.

...and you, Rob, for all the time you put into the first four games of the series without which wouldn't be this All-Star game. Your absence in this game was felt by all, and not in disappointment that we were let down, but that you were missed.

[Christopher]

tenzil said:

My other option was Beth who I also consider a personal friend. I didn't wan't to make that choice at all. Ultimately, the role strategy had it had because that's the only way I could look at them objectively in that situation.

My point was simply that most of us have voted each other out. I'm not casting judgment on the choices anyone made. I wasn't even in that game.

tenzil said:

I don't think I ever said that. I *think* it got back to you via a circuitous route which lead to a chat where we attemoted to clear the air. To the best of my memory what I said was that in trying to watch my own ass I had to find allies and look at people who were potential threats.

Actually...you did tell me to my face. It didn't come to me via anybody else.

It was in the pre-game week when we were all at "the hotel". You told me straight up that you were going to take me out. And then some other various tidbits about how it was game and it wouldn't be personal. Which I totally agree with - game is rarely personal for me.

Nonetheless, I found it all a little shocking, since we didn't even know what tribes would be yet. So, when you got booted first, I actually breathed a sigh of relief.

tenzil said:

Some of that may be snippier then I mean to say it but it's totally not meant that way. I just want everything clear.

Didn't seem snippy to me at all! We're all just doing our post-game clarification. I'm a fan of succint-ness!

tenzil said:

As for "The Clique";--well Jamie never said who she considered to be in it so to me it did seem a bit defensive.

Well, it wasn't just about Jamie. It's about the continual reptitions of that accusation in the game. And having both Kyle and Jamie bring it back up again...I needed to address it - because I haven't.

And...I dunno. I kinda think you're reaching. Jamie may not have said names, but since she was attributing her demise to "The Clique", and I'm the one who gathered the votes for her...not to mention the accusations of me being in a Clique throughout my time in the game...well - I think it was a reasonably fair assumption that I am included in her statement. If I wasn't, I'd be truly surprised.

tenzil said:

This doesn't invalidate anything you said though; it is still a terrifically tough game with or without prior bonds.

Having said that I think even the most impartial person would say that the plotting is currently being dominated and directed by people with those pre-existing bonds and relationships either directly or indirectly. So even if there isn't a clique persay there is still something of a clique-ish mindset.

Chris is right. Jamie is right. Okay? Okay.

Absolutely. And more than that. Everyone is right. We have twenty players, so we have twenty perspectives.

It was just time for me to stand up for those who have been bearing the brunt of "The Clique" bullshit. It's soooooo Season 4.

[Taylor]

Some of the examples you use Chris really don't apply, just because in the final 4 of holidays we had all known each other, and someone had to go. Also Jenne and I had never met before Tonga, so we had no preexisiting relationship.

I still think that we all used the people we knew coming in as a cushion, because I knew that Beth, Kyle, and Jenne wouldn't get rid of me over someone like say Jon, at least at the start.

I think you just proved my point though, I never said that I wouldn't bear a grudge against Tenzil, or even trust him, becuase I didn't, however that was because of my experiences. We all brought those into the game, because it's all-stars , and as much as we hate to admit that we had bias( good or bad) for any contestant, we did.

[Taylor]

Let me clarify because I've heard that two of you have already IMed Chris and it looks like I'm on crack. Great!

When I read Chris's statement, I took it to mean that we had voting each other out because of previous relationships. He says that it is only that we voted each other out.

Well of course we voted each other out, that's the game!

As for me proving Chris's point or him proving mine. I don't know, I just feel that Christopher looks at this in a negative way, and while I like Christopher a lot, I don't feel that it was negative. Sure he does mention that he doesn't like us because of past experiences or whatnot, but I guess my view has always been, better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. I would much rather face Tenzil than some others. I think Chris's point was that the he didn't use the clique and that there wasn't one at all, and I may be wrong, and I may look like I'm on crack, but I think we all used.

Like Kyle said, if JoJo or Jenne were not in this game, would the " Bitch 4" even come into exsistance? There is a clique, even if Chris doesn't want to admit he's already used it in the episodes we've seen so far, he has. I also don't agree that this is a season 4 topic, " The clique" from SC has came up, or at least been used in 3 seasons. Even though Chris says he played with who he wanted to play with, he still played the most closely ( up until this point) with those he knew coming in.

And some of those are members of " The Clique."